Sudden death, lost 2 Rams 2 more look bad, Help please!

[Drakken]

I've had 2 golden ram and 2 blue ram in my 35 gallon hex tank for the last 8 days. One of the golden died all of a sudden and about an hour later a blue ram died. Now the remaining 2 look colorless and weak.

I checked the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels before the fish went in - all were fine. The pH is 7.2 and the temp is 78 degrees. The tank was fully cycled and is very under stocked.

There is one Apisto in the tank an he is agressive towards the other fish but hasn't wounded any of them.

I will check the levels again as soon as I get home (at work now) but is there anything I can do to save the other 2 fish??


Thanks in advance.

[Orchid]

What are their symptoms? Are they exibiting anything out of the ordinary: frayed fins, rapid breathing, problems with slime coat....
Is the other ram really, really bullying them to the point they are trying to jump out of the tank? Sometimes it is the stress that gets to them. Any detailed info you can give us will help us to narrow down possibilities to their deaths.

[farm41]

I checked the ammonia, nitrite and nitrate levels before the fish went in - all were fine.


What does "all were fine" mean, is that 0 ammonia and nitrite or almost none?

[aspen]

i would bet that this is a water problem. get them into some clean water fast. maybe you cleaned the floor with bleach? or somehow contaminated their water otherwise? how is the apisto? does he seem normal?

rick

[Drakken]

Ammonia = 0
Nitrite = 0
Nitrate = 20 ppm (first bar from 0)
ph = 7.4

The only strange behavior is the 2 remaining Rams are hiding behind the heater and the return feed. They both came out for frozen bloodworms and ate well. Color is very good now on both, fins extended and swimming well.

I am very careful not to use any chemicals near the tank and I rinse my hands and arms very well before putting them in the tank.

The Apisto is doing great. Very healthy (as far as I can tell) changing colors from brown to yellow, eats well, lots of energy but chases everyone in the tank. He has not damaged any fish, just chases so far.


I called the LFS I got them from and they said that "just happens" with Rams.


Any more thoughts??

[farm41]

Did they reimburse you then. If they are selling poor quality Rams, they should be making it right with you.

How did you acclimate the Rams? Rams are very sensitive fish. I always transfer my fish from the bag to a 2.5 gallon bucket and then start a drip line from my QT to the bucket using an airline with a knot in it to regulate flow. I just let it drip and the fish get a nice slow adjustment for 1-2 hours.

HTH

[Drakken]

This LFS is very good and has good quality fish most of the time.

I acclimated them by doing a drip from the tank into a holding container but only for about 20 minutes. Is that too little time for Rams?

[farm41]

IMO that is too quick for Rams they are very sensitive fish. All of my fish get at least an hour drip. Your drip should at least double the water volume, I let it drip until the bucket is nearly full.

[Drakken]

Thanks, I will do that next time.

So far the other 2 are doing good. Hopefully they will make it.

[aspen]

imo, bad acclimation will often cause your fish some problems. i like to do for an hour, but with tetras, esp cardinals and neons, 4 hours will greatly increase your surival rate. but your lfs guy is right, ime. some fish will die, no matter what you do.

8 days is long enough to get you over the hump, usually 4 or 5 days is max for new fish deaths. most seem to occurr in the first 3 days with me.

if your nitrates are 20 ppm, that is time to change water. i like to keep my dwarf and tetra tanks lower than this. 20 ppm is quite high due to the low stocking and relatively small amounts of food your are feeding that large a tank. i always age my change water, or else a water change is more stressful than leaving it alone. maybe it is just my tap? but if you aren't doing regular water changes, they seem to stress them out even more than if you are doing them regularly. try at least 25% per week. you will be happy that you did.

fyi, when receiving new fish, i use water from my discus tank in the q-tank. this seems to be better than a new tank of fresh water. i change water very often in the discus tank and it is barely used.

rick

[Neil]

aspen and farm41.
Good advice.

Drakken,
This seems to the the rams' lot in life when going through the normal distributer/wholesaler/LFS channels! As has been mentioned, rams are sensitive animals. The processes that they are subject to in the trip to your LFS is usually more stressful than many can effectively handle. At some point they are subjected to inappropriate water conditions and disease. This may not manifest initially, but is likely to lead to their demise shortly after getting to your tank. Many stores will guarantee freshwater fish, except rams! (mine included) This is because many of the one that make it OK to the LFS die shortly after they are sold. The transfer from the LFS tank to yours may be very short and problem free, but it is still stressful. Stress leads to a reduction in the fishes capacity to fight off diseases that most fish don't have a problem with. The problem may not be with your tank or your Lfs, but has already begun and just needed a little push. Once they settle in, they are usually fine, so the 2 that are OK now should now be no more of a problem than any other fish, as long as they are cared for properly.
Good luck with them.
Neil

[Drakken]

Thank you all for the replies!!

Other than the water changes (which I do regularly) is there anything else special about caring for Rams or Apistos?

[aspen]

i find that rams and apistos do best when in tanks with clean water, not overstocked with cichlids, tetras and others are ok, but just not lots of action all the time, and with a place of their own to claim.

the trick is to do water changes with aged water, not too big, but more often. i feed mine my own beefheart mix for my discus, they grow really nicely on good food. ime, flake is for now and again, not a staple. garbage in/ garbage out. bad food = too much poo = bad water.

rick

[Drakken]

Thanks Aspen.

Can you explain what you mean by "aged" water?

[aspen]

pour water in a tank, heat and aerate for 24 hours and viola! aged water.

this is water where the co2 and other gasses have been bubbled out, and the water has stabilised at the normal 'resting ph' of your water. try testing ph of your water as it comes out of the tap, then test it after 24 hours of agitation. it may be as much as a whole point different or more. mine comes out at about 7.2, and ages up to 8.0. adding un-aged water to my tanks is very stressful to my fish.

rick

[Drakken]

pour water in a tank, heat and aerate for 24 hours and viola! aged water.

this is water where the co2 and other gasses have been bubbled out, and the water has stabilised at the normal 'resting ph' of your water. try testing ph of your water as it comes out of the tap, then test it after 24 hours of agitation. it may be as much as a whole point different or more. mine comes out at about 7.2, and ages up to 8.0. adding un-aged water to my tanks is very stressful to my fish.

rick


Wow, I never heard about doing this. Thanks, I'll try that.

[farm41]

Drakken,

Are you on city water or a well? If on city and they use chlorine you will have to age your water as Rick said. I think, but am not positve, and they use chloramines you may have to use a chemical and age it.

I have well water so I am not experienced with either.

[Drakken]

I have well water too.

[farm41]

That's great for you, so that's out.

[farm41]

How are your fish doing now Drakken? Haven't heard from you in a few days.

[Drakken]

How are your fish doing now Drakken? Haven't heard from you in a few days.


Sorry to say but they are all gone.

I talked to a senior person at my LFS and she and I realized that the person who sold them to me missed and important part...pH. I told the assistant what my pH was but she didn't know that the Rams were in 6.5pH. My tank is at 7.5 and I only did a drip from the tank for 20 minutes. If I knew I would have brought my tank down a little and acclimated the Rams better. My mistake.

My Apisto is still very happy along with his tankmates.

Thanks for asking.

Keith (aka Drakken)

[farm41]

Sorry to hear that Keith. I sure hope that doesn't discourage you from keeping Rams. I just love the little fish. I hope you have a chance to get some of exellent quality too.

[Drakken]

Sorry to hear that Keith. I sure hope that doesn't discourage you from keeping Rams. I just love the little fish. I hope you have a chance to get some of exellent quality too.


Thanks.

They are beautiful fish. I plan to get Rams again but I will be sure to set the tank up right before they go in.